The Morning After

Luna returns from her little adventure late at night and relates what (and who) she did during her absence, and the proposal/invitation from Lady Belissa ir'Kemiria.

According to the itinerary that the Angels have been giving, the next morning is going to be relatively lighter as far as escort duty is concerned. Most of it will be spent on a meeting where Haydith and her attendant diplomats will be closeted with an Aundairan contingent to finalize the details for a set of treaties and trade agreements between Aundair and Karrnath. After that, there is to be an officiial leave-taking from Aurala, and the Serenity will depart in the early evening.

OOC: So what do you guys do, whether now (at night) or next morning?

Admin wrote:

Luna returns from her little adventure late at night and relates what (and who) she did during her absence, and the proposal/invitation from Lady Belissa ir'Kemiria.

According to the itinerary that the Angels have been giving, the next morning is going to be relatively lighter as far as escort duty is concerned. Most of it will be spent on a meeting where Haydith and her attendant diplomats will be closeted with an Aundairan contingent to finalize the details for a set of treaties and trade agreements between Aundair and Karrnath. After that, there is to be an officiial leave-taking from Aurala, and the Serenity will depart in the early evening.

OOC: So what do you guys do, whether now (at night) or next morning?

Listening to Luna's story, with an obvious look of disapproval, "You should have not left the party Luna. We are here to gaurd Haydith, not to have you cavorting with people. If someone were going to attack us they would have expected you there and sent extra forces - so by you not being there we would have been outnumbered and potentially outgunned. You need to learn to control yourself." Gareth then relates to the group "We do not have time to go to this meeting - be it Haydith stays in her room all day, or travels all around we need to be close to her. This lady can contact us and meet us when our job has been complete."

Gareth wrote:

Listening to Luna's story, with an obvious look of disapproval, "You should have not left the party Luna. We are here to gaurd Haydith, not to have you cavorting with people. If someone were going to attack us they would have expected you there and sent extra forces - so by you not being there we would have been outnumbered and potentially outgunned. You need to learn to control yourself."

"I disagree Gareth. There was plenty of security at the party and Luna is more of a hazard to us and the party at such an affair than an asset. It was far better that she be else where for the duration.

Gareth wrote:

Gareth then relates to the group "We do not have time to go to this meeting - be it Haydith stays in her room all day, or travels all around we need to be close to her. This lady can contact us and meet us when our job has been complete."

"Again there is plenty of security today. We can spare Luna and someone diplomatic to go talk to them, which excludes you, me or Korm. So I guess that leaves Six to go. We need more information on these people and why someone would be warning us away from them. We should send them in disguise though so we aren't seen to be openly talking with them."

Nameless wrote:

Again there is plenty of security today. We can spare Luna and someone diplomatic to go talk to them, which excludes you, me or Korm. So I guess that leaves Six to go. We need more information on these people and why someone would be warning us away from them. We should send them in disguise though so we aren't seen to be openly talking with them.

OOC: o.0??? Diplomatic excluding Gareth? Not sure what Six has for diplomacy, but I think gareth more then doubles him? Or did you mean Gareth can't go because Gareth is the primary guard for the princess due to his spells and being the one who is least viewed to try and take advantage of a hawt chick.

Gareth wrote:

OOC: o.0??? Diplomatic excluding Gareth? Not sure what Six has for diplomacy, but I think gareth more then doubles him? Or did you mean Gareth can't go because Gareth is the primary guard for the princess due to his spells and being the one who is least viewed to try and take advantage of a hawt chick.

Personality issues outweigh dice rolls, despite what you want to believe about Gareth's diplomacy bonuses.

To clarify : If we were talking about the guard at the city gates trying to persuade them to let us in 15 min after the gates close, then Gareth's diplomacy modifiers are useful. If it's talking to a named NPC with an agenda who has to be talked to, then it doesn't matter what you THINK your diplomacy rolls should get you.

Nameless wrote:

Personality issues outweigh dice rolls, despite what you want to believe about Gareth's diplomacy bonuses.

Not really. Diplomacy skill is an in game trait and outweighs out of game influences or other (for the most part) in game influences. So Gareth may get a penalty if he really hates the person and shows it, but I doubt it would be enough of a penalty (10-20 points) to outweigh his diplomatic skills. I believe a -20 penalty applies in combat.

Nameless wrote:

To clarify : If we were talking about the guard at the city gates trying to persuade them to let us in 15 min after the gates close, then Gareth's diplomacy modifiers are useful. If it's talking to a named NPC with an agenda who has to be talked to, then it doesn't matter what you THINK your diplomacy rolls should get you.

How do you get this? If Gareth is talking to any named NPC his diplomacy kicks in - and it kicks in well. Sometimes I throw in a lot of hate in there to give a negative but it still kicks in. For example - if the Queen asks us to help her and you say "no you are stupid we won't help you" - with Nameless' charisma it will translate into the equivelant of a kick in the teeth and land us in jail. If I say it, Gareth's charisma will translate it into a very diplomatic kick in the teeth and would probably just end the meeting. Can I override the diplomacy of Gareth - sure - but I have to specifically state it. In the end - for Gareth's diplomacy not work would have to be a combination of a mob that hates Gareth already and me overriding it. Even a blackgaurd who is completely opposed to the Silver Flame would respect and listen to Gareth because of the diplomacy score. Gareth can very easily turn hated to unfriendly or neutral.

Barring any extra hate I throw in there Gareth is way better at diplomacy then Six. The only way this would get penalized, vs this person, is if Gareth doesn't like what she says and calls her stupid. Then again, if Nameless calls her stupid, Nameless may have the law come after him.

Gareth wrote:

The only way this would get penalized, vs this person, is if Gareth doesn't like what she says and calls her stupid.

Precisely. This is exactly what I worry about. What ever Six might lack in skills he more than makes up for in discretion and tact.

Gareth wrote:

How do you get this? If Gareth is talking to any named NPC his diplomacy kicks in - and it kicks in well... Gareth can very easily turn hated to unfriendly or neutral.

Name once when things have worked this way with an NPC of any significance? It worked so well with Saidin Boromar and Ythana after all. They both loved us after Gareth was finished talking to them.

Gareth wrote:

For example - if the Queen asks us to help her and you say "no you are stupid we won't help you" - with Nameless' charisma it will translate into the equivelant of a kick in the teeth and land us in jail.

Really? Are you saying the Alienist with a minimal charisma bonus, no ranks and a penalty to checks with anyone who isn't involved with the Far Realm sucks at persuading people? Next you'll be telling me that water is wet. However there is an important point. I'm not in the habit of telling people they are stupid and we won't help them.

Nameless wrote:

Precisely. This is exactly what I worry about. What ever Six might lack in skills he more than makes up for in discretion and tact.

Except that discretion and tact is Dave - and while it gets a slight bonus it does not outweigh the in game skill. Otherwise I want some heavy bonuses for me being extremely skilled in the art of fighting and have it applied to Gareth. In game talents outweigh RP - otherwise it would not be fair - people who are very diplomatic or good at bluffing/etc would invest little to no points in their characters and make up for it with personal attributes. Remember it is Nameless talking to these NPCs not John.

Nameless wrote:

Name once when things have worked this way with an NPC of any significance? It worked so well with Saidin Boromar and Ythana after all. They both loved us after Gareth was finished talking to them.

Ythana? Barring the last incident Ythana has always loved Gareth. His diplomacy has gotten him lots of help. Shil would be a better person to ask of times where Gareths diplomacy has kept the group out of hot water - one he would remember it better then me, and two he doesn't always say "you guys got saved by gareths diplomacy"

Nameless wrote:

Really? Are you saying the Alienist with a minimal charisma bonus, no ranks and a penalty to checks with anyone who isn't involved with the Far Realm sucks at persuading people? Next you'll be telling me that water is wet. However there is an important point. I'm not in the habit of telling people they are stupid and we won't help them.

Here is the good point - let's say you are talking to someone and they are mistaken - you point this out and in the nicest way possible. Your characters lack of diplomacy and low charisma and other penalties would translate your message to "What are you a moron? 2+2 = 4 not 5. Stupid idiot" Again - Shil doesn't always display this, but he has said many times over that he calculates these skills.

Gareth wrote:

Except that discretion and tact is Dave - and while it gets a slight bonus it does not outweigh the in game skill. Otherwise I want some heavy bonuses for me being extremely skilled in the art of fighting and have it applied to Gareth. In game talents outweigh RP - otherwise it would not be fair - people who are very diplomatic or good at bluffing/etc would invest little to no points in their characters and make up for it with personal attributes. Remember it is Nameless talking to these NPCs not John.

Unfortunately it isn't fair and people who are good at persuading other people do have an advantage in RP situations in D&D games. Dave's discretion and tact does out weigh your in game bonuses + the penalties you tend to draw from the way you RP Gareth. In a casual encounter with an unimportant NPC Gareth's bonuses do come in very handy. In a situation where we are writing out replies and documenting the interaction, not so much.

Gareth wrote:

Ythana? Barring the last incident Ythana has always loved Gareth. His diplomacy has gotten him lots of help. Shil would be a better person to ask of times where Gareths diplomacy has kept the group out of hot water - one he would remember it better then me, and two he doesn't always say "you guys got saved by gareths diplomacy"

Waiting. Though it's worth noting that Nameless despite his penalties has also gotten us some very useful help from NPCs.

Gareth wrote:

Here is the good point - let's say you are talking to someone and they are mistaken - you point this out and in the nicest way possible. Your characters lack of diplomacy and low charisma and other penalties would translate your message to "What are you a moron? 2+2 = 4 not 5. Stupid idiot" Again - Shil doesn't always display this, but he has said many times over that he calculates these skills.

And this is why I try to avoid being the face man for most instances.

Nameless wrote:

Unfortunately it isn't fair and people who are good at persuading other people do have an advantage in RP situations in D&D games. Dave's discretion and tact does out weigh your in game bonuses + the penalties you tend to draw from the way you RP Gareth. In a casual encounter with an unimportant NPC Gareth's bonuses do come in very handy. In a situation where we are writing out replies and documenting the interaction, not so much.

I think we should let Shil chime in on this one. I remember Shil saying that my bonuses do not get outweighed (and it would be wrong if it did). If the bonus for being personable is about +5, that nowhere near comes to the +23 (i think that is what Gareth has). The way I RP Gareth works - some people Gareth won't work with and some it will. Again, I am not sure how you get casual/unimportant encounters as a shining point for Gareth, but otherwise a poor way for Gareth. Gareth doesn't have the greatest diplomatic relations with people who are evil, or desire things that violate his code.

Gareth wrote:

Again, I am not sure how you get casual/unimportant encounters as a shining point for Gareth,

With a casual/unimportant encounter Shil, like most DMs is more willing to just have dice rolls affect things.

Gareth wrote:

Gareth doesn't have the greatest diplomatic relations with people who are evil, or desire things that violate his code.

Precisely. If Dave gets asked to do something Gareth would find objectionable he will politely decline, evade the question or be non-committal. Thus he will not insult, piss off or otherwise aggravate the situation and won't make yet another enemy for us.

Here are my two bits on the subject of how I use Diplomacy in this game:

I do use Diplomacy most of the time, and usually behind the scenes without bothering to point out when I'm doing so unless asked and often without bothering to roll (usually just taking 10). And when I do that I use the best bonus available among those speaking to the NPC(s), which always means Gareth's if he is there. There have been dozens of times when Gareth's humongous diplomacy scores have kicked in and made things easier. That's one of the main reasons why many important NPCs give you guys the time of day and/or cut you some slack.

That being said, it's worth noting that the Diplomacy skill is not magic or mind control. Any effect it may have on an NPC occurs within the context of the given situation and the particular NPC's personality. So, for example, if Gareth had managed to use his Diplomacy to improve the attitude of the lich who attacked the airship to, say, Friendly, what she would have done is given Gareth the option of getting out of her way and (if he refused) either incapacitated him or regretfully killed him as painlessly as possible. The fact that her attitude to him was changed doesn't change her attitude to all the other people in the world, including those she has greater allegiances and stronger relationships to/with. A sentry guarding Queen Aurala's door whom Gareth uses Diplomacy to move to Helpful will still not let him through, since he wouldn't let anyone, even his best friend, through, though he might try very hard to persuade Gareth not to enter.

As for this given situation, when it comes to Gareth and Six specifically, the effectiveness of what they say will depend to a great deal on what it is they say too. If Belissa makes a proposal and Six says he'll consider it and Gareth says he won't, then her response to Six will be better, because the circumstances are completely different. If Six says he'll consider it and does so as well as he can, and Gareth says he'll consider it but isn't likely to accept, Gareth may come off looking better due to his huge Diplomacy score. But the Diplomacy can't make the reply irrelevant. That's why, for example, if Nameless and his lousy Diplomacy had said "Yes" to Ythana, she'd have been a lot happier with him than she was with Gareth's refusal, despite his high Diplomacy score.

Hope that clears some things up. Post any further questions you may have about how things work, before or behind the curtain.

So, what's the plan for the next day? It seems Gareth doesn't want to go and that Nameless wants Luna and Six to go, so there's some degree of agreement there. Is that the plan?

Dave, what's Six's take on it?

Admin wrote:

So, what's the plan for the next day? It seems Gareth doesn't want to go and that Nameless wants Luna and Six to go, so there's some degree of agreement there. Is that the plan?

Dave, what's Six's take on it?

Clarification: Not that Gareth doesn't want to go, just that Gareth has obligation and cannot go

Well, Luna certainly does NOT want to go!!
If you want - I can stay here and guard the Princess, and you can go.
Or - take her with! :-)
If we ALL go... then Luna might agree to go... but I'm not going otherwise.

We can just send a note telling her we're very busy running around toilet training some other set of Royals and if she wants to talk to Gareth or Nameless or Six... she can do it here in some lobby somewhere.

Oh, and make sure to tell her to bring candy!!
That the Angles can get very grumpy if not appeased with candy!! :-)

Gareth wrote:

Clarification: Not that Gareth doesn't want to go, just that Gareth has obligation and cannot go

You say po-tah-to, I say ...

Luna wrote:

Well, Luna certainly does NOT want to go!!
If you want - I can stay here and guard the Princess, and you can go.
Or - take her with! :-)
If we ALL go... then Luna might agree to go... but I'm not going otherwise.

We can just send a note telling her we're very busy running around toilet training some other set of Royals and if she wants to talk to Gareth or Nameless or Six... she can do it here in some lobby somewhere.

Oh, and make sure to tell her to bring candy!!
That the Angles can get very grumpy if not appeased with candy!! :-)

[Kamran]She had sex with me, left without a word, and never called me back. I ... feel ... so ... used![/Kamran]

Well - Maybe Korm wants to go with Six. What's his Diplomacy?
He does seem to have a way with the ladies!
They are repulsed - but at the same time - strangley attracted!

I still think we dont have to go like delivery people to see everyone who wants an audience. Who do they think they are - Royalty or something? Well - whatever.... They can come to us.

Some responses

Darro: "So there is a real likelihood that your companion may hurt Kamran?"
Six: "Ah yes. reading from notes Surface sratches, scarification, pulled muscles, bruises, screams, moans and unconsciousness. Fortunatly she is quite the healer.

To Murat: The Lord of Blades had the right idea but wrong execution. Outside of the most petty and cruel, I have never witnessed those two poles come together.

Six watches Nameless and Gareth go through another round of philosophcal perspectives. He considers jumping in and almost does so. However he is determined to stick with his newest take on social interactions; WWLD. "What meeting?"

Dare I ask?
Does WWLD stand for .... What would Luna do???

TOO FUNNY!!!! :-D

Luna wrote:

Dare I ask?
Does WWLD stand for .... What would Luna do???

TOO FUNNY!!!! :-D

Hey, I have What Would Luna Do moments too! And sometimes I wake up from them in the middle of the night, scream and little, hold myself and rock back and forth till I fall asleep again.

Anyway, I think Six asked a question about "What meeting?" so I presume Luna explains what happened, Gareth explains why he can't go, and Nameless explains why he thinks Six should go (he also suggested Luna, but she doesn't wanna and suggested Korm instead).

Does Six go meet Belissa?

Hmm is it too late to hire a warfored to go in my stead.
I'll go.

HELLLLOOOOO!!!
CAN ANYBODY HEAR ME????

Did nobody even HEAR my suggestion that we tell her to come here????

SHIL- I want Listen checks all round!!!

I mean - we KNOW they have a nice carriage!
Fully stocked bar and candy drawer!

Frankly - it's demeaning for the angles to be running like this!

I say - send a note saying Six will "see" her here, at her convenience some time tomorrow.

Dave W wrote:

Hmm is it too late to hire a warfored to go in my stead.
I'll go.

Okay. Taking Korm with you, or going alone?

Luna wrote:

HELLLLOOOOO!!!
CAN ANYBODY HEAR ME????

Did nobody even HEAR my suggestion that we tell her to come here????

SHIL- I want Listen checks all round!!!

Come on, you're used to them ignoring Luna, aren't you? I told you they're all ingrates. Flame Strike 'em all!

Quote :

I mean - we KNOW they have a nice carriage!
Fully stocked bar and candy drawer!

Frankly - it's demeaning for the angles to be running like this!

I say - send a note saying Six will "see" her here, at her convenience some time tomorrow.

Remember, it's a possibility that she doesn't want to meet you guys at the royal palace. Where, incidentally, you are guests currently, so it might not be completely kosher for you to be inviting someone over for a meeting.

That being said, as always - whatever you guys want to do is cool with me.

Either send a recording plant or animal. or meet her in the nearest natural setting. At this level we could sent a spell treated creature to hear the Lady message then speak with it when it comes back. This has the advantage of forcing the message to be simple. We could meet with her in some natural setting near by. There we could treat the area with spells of proctection and detection. Making it more a home field for us.

If we decide to go with that - I'm happy to oblige on any thing I can do.


Nameless could always teleport over and drop off the message.
That's very quick. He has a very nice hat of disquise I lent him.


We could always sit in the carriage.
It's very comfortable.
(Kinda like a LIMO!)

And I can always set up our beautiful hut!

She should be able to understand that we cant spare people to run off while we are protecting the fair princess!
That would just be wrong!