The Khatovar-Pitax War (the Kelis conundrum)

Since we have some time before the next session and I'm interested to see what the PCs do after Kelis' capture, as well as giving Scott some (limited) control over what happens to her, I thought I'd start up a thread to discuss OOC and play out IC some of what happens next. So here we go...

First, a few questions for the other players/PCs. Once Rowan teleports everyone back to Khatovar:

(1) What do you do next?

(2) Do you try to hide what happened to Kelis?

(3) If the answer to (2) is "Yes", then what do you do when people, especially your councilors and other trusted people, ask about her whereabouts?

And Scott, roll me half a dozen Will saves, without the benefits of your magic items or any spells.

Is it too late to Fireball her before we leave?

Overall if Scott wants to get his character killed that's fine with me, but Quintessa will be screwed and any hope we might have of using the ex-drelev military leaders will be right out the window, when Keliss is charmed/dominated/etc... and spills her guts

Well at least assuming Quintessa wasn't just running a triple bluff and she was just pretending to have changed her mind about selling us out.

We'll send Quintessa a message to warn her as soon as possible. We'll offer her and the other leaders she's mentioned extraction.

We'll tell the councilors about what happened.

Nameless wrote:

Is it too late to Fireball her before we leave?

Yes.

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Overall if Scott wants to get his character killed that's fine with me...

I don't think Scott has (or had) any intention of getting Kelis killed and if/when she gets rescued, he'll be running her again.

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, but Quintessa will be screwed and any hope we might have of using the ex-drelev military leaders will be right out the window, when Keliss is charmed/dominated/etc... and spills her guts

Well at least assuming Quintessa wasn't just running a triple bluff and she was just pretending to have changed her mind about selling us out.

We'll send Quintessa a message to warn her as soon as possible. We'll offer her and the other leaders she's mentioned extraction.

Okay. Leonis hadn't used his ring, I believe, so he could pop off a sending to her within 10 minutes of your PCs returning to Khatovar. You can get hold of scrolls of sending easily enough or get House Sivis to do that, though that takes more time, so you can be in touch with Amina and Terrion within an hour or so of being back.

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We'll tell the councilors about what happened.

I'll pop up a post about the results of all the above after I give the others a chance to weigh in.

Admin wrote:

I don't think Scott has (or had) any intention of getting Kelis killed and if/when she gets rescued, he'll be running her again.

And had I used Kelis's abilities better, I'd have gotten away with it! Probably. Maybe. Note to self: always open with Dimensional Anchor against spell casters.

Six WILL saves: 13, 16, 11, 12, 24, 24

The member 'Kelis' has done the following action : Dice roller

'd20' : 5, 8, 3, 4, 16, 16

Kelis wrote:

Admin wrote:

I don't think Scott has (or had) any intention of getting Kelis killed and if/when she gets rescued, he'll be running her again.

And had I used Kelis's abilities better, I'd have gotten away with it

, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids!

If you think you'd have gotten away with it, you are just as mistaken as the Villain in Scooby Doo each week.

Shil will let you and as we clearly saw, encourage you to do stupid things, but his non-mook PCs basically never do stupid things in combat and he will do to your character exactly what happened this time as well.

He has zero compunctions about grinding your character's face into the mud, if you treat any combat situation you go into as less than a dire threat.

You can screw around all you like in the RP segments, screw around in combat like that and next time you'll get us all killed.

@Scott - Legit question - if you like Kelis and want to continue playing her we will save her, otherwise let her be avenged. I like her (I am sure the others do too), but that is irrelevant - it's your character. So what say you?

@Shil - Yes we notify with quentessa first, then the others

John is correct in his assessment.

@Scott - Shil is a min/maxer (though he will argue to death that he is not) and will munchkin your characters death each and every single time if you don't treat each battle as if you are fighting a deity. We've learned from years of experience. Probably with your characters manifestation you should be playing her more cautious - which in general is a good rule of thumb in a shil game. Anytime we have had pushover deaths it came as a result of one of three things 1) Shil rolled really poorly, and we rolled really well, 2) Shil misdesigned the battle (extremely rare) or we figured out some great tactic (which will subsequently get nerfed), or 3) Shil wanted to give us a freebie because we were getting frustrated and bitched for a while

Now, if Scott wants to keep Kelis:

1) Find some spells to search for her body...i am sure we have samples of her hair in her room
2) Scry
3) teleport in with tons of buffs - ready for world war 8
4) do something along the lines of tport in, cast some kind of force wall, teleport out

Nameless wrote:

Shil will let you and as we clearly saw, encourage you to do stupid things, but his non-mook PCs basically never do stupid things in combat and he will do to your character exactly what happened this time as well.

True. While most of the named NPCs won't be using absolutely optimal tactics, none of them will do stupid stuff in combat unless there's a really good reason for them to do so.

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He has zero compunctions about grinding your character's face into the mud, if you treat any combat situation you go into as less than a dire threat.

To be honest, I have no compunctions about grinding the PCs' faces into the mud even if they do treat a combat situation as a dire threat

Leonis wrote:

@Scott - Legit question - if you like Kelis and want to continue playing her we will save her, otherwise let her be avenged. I like her (I am sure the others do too), but that is irrelevant - it's your character. So what say you?

Scott and I discussed this and he's planning to continue playing her, as long as that's an option.

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@Shil - Yes we notify with quentessa first, then the others

Okay. I'll put up a post about it tonight or tomorrow.

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@Scott - Shil is a min/maxer (though he will argue to death that he is not)

Oh, I don't deny at all that I'm a min-maxer, particularly as a DM. But I think I'm disqualified from being a true powergamer or munchkin because I have a particular threshold for power levels which I won't cross.

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Now, if Scott wants to keep Kelis:

1) Find some spells to search for her body...i am sure we have samples of her hair in her room
2) Scry
3) teleport in with tons of buffs - ready for world war 8
4) do something along the lines of tport in, cast some kind of force wall, teleport out

If you really want to do the scry + teleport in, you can be confident that I would totally not dissuade you from it

Admin wrote:

Oh, I don't deny at all that I'm a min-maxer, particularly as a DM. But I think I'm disqualified from being a true powergamer or munchkin because I have a particular threshold for power levels which I won't cross.

Our first DM would disagree regarding your 2nd level barbarian.

Id like to see what your threshold is

Leonis wrote:

Our first DM would disagree regarding your 2nd level barbarian.

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Id like to see what your threshold is

You've seen my threshold all the time. Think of all the stuff I don't allow in the game because it's too powerful in my estimation. My ideal power level for a PC is actually a fair bit lower than the one at which most people in this group like to function, but I'm happy to work at the one that we have currently because the players get more of what they want (without it being too far beyond what I want). I could create NPCs (and PCs) who're way more powerful than what I've used in this or the Guardian Angels game, but I'm not interested in doing so.

Back to in-game stuff...

When Quintessa receives the sending with the information, her response is "Damn! And thanks. I'll teleport to your castle as soon as I can. Warn Terrion and Amina. See you soon."

Terrion's response to the sending to him, sent an hour after the one to Quintessa, is, "Already on the way. Can you get me from location where you were attacked by Asaia Bell and her troops? Be there in six hours."

Amina, conversely, responds, "Am surrounded by Irovetti's people and have Avina and Hannis present. Impossible to leave at this point. Will slip away if able. Wish me luck."

As promised, Quintessa teleports into Lakeshore a little less than an hour after receiving the message. Terrion too is picked up without difficulty from the location he mentioned. There is, however, neither news nor message from Amina.

* * * * *
Kelis awakes to find herself sitting in a comfortable chair in a fairly well-appointed chamber, which is divided in half by a curtain. Castruccio Irovetti is standing beside her, with a hand on her shoulder. He removes it, smiling, and says, "Lady Kelis - I'm pleased to see that you are fine. I apologize for Avina's, ahem, enthusiasm, but you did attack her and the others, after all. Understandable, of course, considering our current situation, but regrettable, nevertheless. On the other hand, I had always hoped that you and I would be able to speak privately, and here you are."

He pauses and then asks, his tone solicitous and curious, "How are you feeling? Can I get you anything to eat or drink? I was hoping that we could discuss what happened at the bridge, if you don't mind."

Kelis finds that she is lacking any weapons and most of her magical items. And also that she is feeling particularly well-disposed to Irovetti. Now that he mentions it, it does seem a bit of a pity that she has been working against someone as nice as him. Perhaps peace is a better option?

OOC: Unsurprisingly, she's been charmed by Irovetti at this point.

"Lady?" Kelis snorts. It's an still endearing sort of snort, even though she's been reduced to her natural charisma. "I'm a Valenari warrior, though apparently not a very good one, given the circumstances I find myself in". Kelis is surprised to find she feels wonderful. Her persistent slight irritation with the world is gone.

"I'm well. Don't apologize for Avina. After all, I was trying to kill her and Immeckis. It wasn't personal."

Kelis stretches in a non-threatening way.

"As for what I was doing on the bridge... I was trying to kill Immeckis and Avina. I wanted to remove your spellcasters from the field. In hopes would bring s swift end to hostilities. To prevent needless loss of life". Kelis stops, feeling satisfied with that answer.

"Oh, I would like some wine, if that's permissible. I don't require food now. Why is your kind always asking that? I think this is why you all have weight problems."

OOC: Quick question, does charm person compel the person to do things that may harm her other friends. For example, would Kelis tell secrets, tips/tricks that could be used to hurt the party or would she decide to stay neutral?

Leonis wrote:

OOC: Quick question, does charm person compel the person to do things that may harm her other friends. For example, would Kelis tell secrets, tips/tricks that could be used to hurt the party or would she decide to stay neutral?

No. For that, you need dominate person. As the spell description says, "The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.)"

I've always thought charm person is a poorly written spell, since there are a ton of elements to it which really should have been clarified. For example, it doesn't change your memories, so if an enemy now has you charmed, how do you reconcile what you remember of them with your current feelings? Anyway, to try and make things easier for Scott, here's a more detailed description of how I see it working:

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If you are affected by Charm Person, you perceive the person who cast it as your most valued friend and view their words and actions in the most favorable way. That does not, however, otherwise change your personality, which mediates the effects. So, for example, if you are normally loyal to your friends, then you will be particularly loyal to the caster, while a more selfish and self-centered person will be less so. The particular context also affects the spell's effects. For example, a diligent and professional guard who would not normally risk letting even a good friend into the chamber that she is guarding would not let a person who charmed her in there either.

A charmed person can be persuaded to do things that they would not if the caster wins an opposed Charisma check against her. There are, however, limits to such persuasion, since they cannot be made to do what they would normally not do for even their best friend. The average person, for example, cannot be persuaded to murder someone in cold blood even with an opposed check. Similarly, a charmed person never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing.

Being charmed does not change a person's allegiances and valuation of other people. The person will still value the people they originally did (though they will feel their greatest allegiance to the caster), so their responses to the caster's demands will depend on how they affect those others too. Similarly, a charmed person does not necessarily feel well-disposed toward the caster's allies, though the fact that they are allies of her best friend will presumably affect her attitude to them. Any act by the caster that actively threatens the charmed person breaks the spell and the same is true if the caster's allies do so and the caster supports them over the charmed person.

Let me know if any of you have questions about the above.

Kelis wrote:

"Lady?" Kelis snorts. It's an still endearing sort of snort, even though she's been reduced to her natural charisma. "I'm a Valenari warrior, though apparently not a very good one, given the circumstances I find myself in". Kelis is surprised to find she feels wonderful. Her persistent slight irritation with the world is gone.

Irovetti chuckles at that. "Well, even a Valenar warrior can be outmatched, correct? And, though I wasn't there, I hear that you were ... slightly outnumbered."

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"I'm well. Don't apologize for Avina. After all, I was trying to kill her and Immeckis. It wasn't personal."

Kelis stretches in a non-threatening way.

"As for what I was doing on the bridge... I was trying to kill Immeckis and Avina. I wanted to remove your spellcasters from the field. In hopes would bring s swift end to hostilities. To prevent needless loss of life". Kelis stops, feeling satisfied with that answer.

"Oh, I would like some wine, if that's permissible. I don't require food now. Why is your kind always asking that? I think this is why you all have weight problems."

Irovetti raises an eyebrow and looks down at his well-built chest, which--as usual--his low-cut shirt is clearly designed to reveal, before saying, "Now you're going to hurt my feelings!" The tone is clearly jocular, however, and he then says, "Wine coming right up." He walks over to a cabinet atop which a couple of bowls of food stand, selecting a bottle from the shelves below and pouring it into two glasses. Bringing it over, he hands Kelis a glass and then sips at his own, while watching her silently for a moment. If Kelis tastes it, she finds that Irovetti's taste in wine is clearly better than Hannis'. It is, as far as she can make out, a dark Orla-Un wine from Aundair, fruity and sweet in flavor.

Her host says, "I presume some of the other rulers were Khatovar were present at the bridge, in view of what happened to it. Correct?" Not awaiting an answer, Irovetti continues, "I'm curious what their opinions are regarding ending hostilities as quickly as possible. As I'm sure you know, I would like ... things to end as soon as possible too, so that the Stolen Lands can be safe and peaceful as a single kingdom. In all honesty, I don't think that your friends are bad rulers at all. I just think that I would be better."

He smiles winningly, with just a hint of mischief in the expression, before continuing, "I wonder if the current situation changes things at all, especially as far as your friends are concerned. You don't by any chance think they'd want to sue for peace in order to get you back, do you? That would bring the war to a speedy end, with as little loss of life as possible."

And a question (or questions) for the other players besides Scott:

Do you scry for Kelis the same day? Or on the following day(s)? Also, if you do locate Kelis, are you considering doing the buff-and-teleport rescue that Avi mentioned?

Admin wrote:

And a question (or questions) for the other players besides Scott:

Do you scry for Kelis the same day? Or on the following day(s)? Also, if you do locate Kelis, are you considering doing the buff-and-teleport rescue that Avi mentioned?

I am down for scrying daily. I will also buff myself before doing so.

We should also try sending to Kelis.

Leonis wrote:

I am down for scrying daily. I will also buff myself before doing so.

We should also try sending to Kelis.

Okay. What do you say in the sending?

Admin wrote:

Leonis wrote:

I am down for scrying daily. I will also buff myself before doing so.

We should also try sending to Kelis.

Okay. What do you say in the sending?

Is there anybody there? What's your status?

Leonis wrote:

Is there anybody there? What's your status?

Okay. On the first day you scry and use a sending (i.e. the day that you attacked the bridge), the scrying fails and there's no response to the sending. I'll let you know how future attempts go once I see some more of how Kelis' interaction with Irovetti goes.

Admin wrote:

And, though I wasn't there, I hear that you were ... slightly outnumbered."

It ended up being three on one. Four, if you count me being my own worst enemy."

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Irovetti raises an eyebrow and looks down at his well-built chest, which--as usual--his low-cut shirt is clearly designed to reveal, before saying, "Now you're going to hurt my feelings!"

"Oh you're fine" says Kelis curtly. There are limits to what even magic can do to improve her disposition. "I was thinking of your females. They have an unbecoming roundess. Like... Rowan for instance.

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If Kelis tastes it, she finds that Irovetti's taste in wine is clearly better than Hannis'. It is, as far as she can make out, a dark Orla-Un wine from Aundair, fruity and sweet in flavor.

"You have better taste than Hannis Drelev". Kelis tastes a long drink from her goblet, savoring not feeling annoyed. "Also, the sea is wet." She smiles, astounding herself.

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"I presume some of the other rulers were Khatovar were present at the bridge, in view of what happened to it. Correct?" Not awaiting an answer, Irovetti continues, "I'm curious what their opinions are regarding ending hostilities as quickly as possible. As I'm sure you know, I would like ... things to end as soon as possible too, so that the Stolen Lands can be safe and peaceful as a single kingdom. In all honesty, I don't think that your friends are bad rulers at all. I just think that I would be better."

"Well, your forces couldn't have missed Grapthar. Unless your army is blind. And Leonis was about. Doing something under the earth, I believe. And the Lady Kara. Honestly I wasn't paying a lot of attention to them. I... was focused on my own chance for glory. Turned out to be a mistake".

Kelis drinks more wine.

"They are good rulers. Despite their... peccadilloes and weight issues. Would you make a good ruler, Duke Ivoretti? You used a public games as cover for a sneak attack. My people take games *very* seriously. What you did would dishonor a Valenari."

Again, wine and magic can only make Kelis so nice.

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"You don't by any chance think they'd want to sue for peace in order to get you back, do you? That would bring the war to a speedy end, with as little loss of life as possible."

"At this point, I'm not sure they'd want me back if you offered to pay them. Joking aside, no. They are committed and honorable. They intend to rule, and will not set that aside for a single comrade."

Kelis wrote:

It ended up being three on one. Four, if you count me being my own worst enemy."

...

"Oh you're fine" says Kelis curtly. There are limits to what even magic can do to improve her disposition. "I was thinking of your females. They have an unbecoming roundess. Like... Rowan for instance.

...

"You have better taste than Hannis Drelev". Kelis tastes a long drink from her goblet, savoring not feeling annoyed. "Also, the sea is wet." She smiles, astounding herself.

Irovetti chuckles at Kelis' comments but, perhaps wisely, does not actually respond to any of these. Despite the banter, the ruler of Pitax is clearly much more focused on the issue of the ongoing/upcoming war.

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"Well, your forces couldn't have missed Grapthar. Unless your army is blind. And Leonis was about. Doing something under the earth, I believe. And the Lady Kara. Honestly I wasn't paying a lot of attention to them. I... was focused on my own chance for glory. Turned out to be a mistake".

Kelis drinks more wine.

"They are good rulers. Despite their... peccadilloes and weight issues. Would you make a good ruler, Duke Ivoretti? You used a public games as cover for a sneak attack. My people take games *very* seriously. What you did would dishonor a Valenari."

Again, wine and magic can only make Kelis so nice.

OOC: Evidently. I like the way you're doing the charm person + wine working (to only an extent) against her natural attitudes.

IC:"Yes," says Irovetti, speaking with seeming honesty, "I do gather that they are good rulers. As I like to think I am. I have made my little nation much stronger in a short period of time than most would have expected. I take care of my people and will be able to better do so when I bring peace to the Stolen Lands. I am," he grins disarmingly, "a little biased on the subject, of course, but not too much."

"As for my ... sneak attack, consider this. Hannis Drelev was a horrible ruler. He intended to try to conquer my land and Khatovar. He would, of course, have failed horribly at it in the long term, but by bankrupting his kingdom and gaining some powerful allies, he could have done enormous damage to his enemies before he was defeated. And, in the interests of honesty, I did not want him to attack Khatovar, be beaten, and have the land of Drelev conquered by your friends, leaving them with a kingdom thrice the size of mine. They hadn't displayed any aggressive intentions toward Pitax at the time, but I couldn't take the chance. So, for all these reasons, I did what I thought was the most expedient thing and won a war without causing more loss of life for my people and Hannis' in the simple name of honor. I honestly don't think my honor matters more than the lives of my people and allies. And, to come back to your earlier question, I think that makes me a good ruler."

He pauses, looking thoughtfully at Kelis for a moment, and then says, "I'll admit that I haven't had first-hand experience of Valenar war-tactics, but I gather that the Valenar--or at least some of them--consider war too serious to waste time on issues such as honor. Wasn't the nation itself formed when War Leader Shaeras Vadallia simply gave up on his promises to his Cyran employers during the Last War and claimed the land for himself and his mercenary people, declaring himself high king, citing the Aerenal habitation on that land millennia ago and the blood that his people had shed in its defence in recent times as his justification? That was not honorable, according to many, but certainly good for his people. The Valenar massacred helpless refugees fleeing the creation of the Mournland simply because their presence would be a possible threat to the Valenar."

Irovetti's tone is not argumentative but rather teasing, as if he is enjoying the minor debate. It becomes even more so, his eyes twinkling, as he continues, "And I once heard a tale of a certain Valenar warrior who invisibly ambushed a group of enemies in hopes of killing them suddenly and ending a war. It wasn't the most honorable thing to do, I guess, but certainly brave and--if it had worked--would have been very good for her allies." He winks and sips at his wine.

OOC: Irovetti's history is accurate. And, for the record, many of the Valenar do tend to be perfectly fine with sneak attacks, ambushes, etc. Conversely, many would take the approach Kelis mentioned. In short, there's a fair amount of variety there.

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"At this point, I'm not sure they'd want me back if you offered to pay them. Joking aside, no. They are committed and honorable. They intend to rule, and will not set that aside for a single comrade."

"Ah, I see. A pity." Irovetti again remains thoughtfully silent for a couple of seconds and then says, "In that case, what do you propose I do with you? You are technically a prisoner of war, as you know, but I'd much rather see you as at least an honored guest. Or an ally?" He gives Kelis a questioning look and says, "After all, despite your claims about your failure, I'm quite certain that you would help bring the war to a speedier conclusion if you aided me. Or do you think that Khatovar might actually win?"

Admin wrote:

Hannis Drelev was a horrible ruler.

"He also has horrible wife, a horrible dog, and bad taste in wine" blurts out Kelis.

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<snip>... "And, to come back to your earlier question, I think that makes me a good ruler."

Kelis looks briefly perplexed. "I cannot find flaw in your reasoning". Kelis looks at her wine. "Are you perhaps drugging me?" She says this with a smile, however.

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He pauses, looking thoughtfully at Kelis for a moment, and then says, "I'll admit that I haven't had first-hand experience of Valenar war-tactics, but I gather that the Valenar--or at least some of them--consider war too serious to waste time on issues such as honor.... <snip>"

"Yes, yes, I'm aware of my people's history." A familiar annoyance creeps back into Kelis's voice. "We're like everyone else; sometimes we aren't who we avow to be. But I was making a specific criticism. Your ruse involved games and my clan holds games as sacred. I'm a Pan-Valenar Games Champion, you know. Archery". She smiles for perhaps the 3rd time in her adult life.

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"And I once heard a tale of a certain Valenar warrior who invisibly ambushed a group of enemies in hopes of killing them suddenly and ending a war. It wasn't the most honorable thing to do, I guess, but certainly brave and--if it had worked--would have been very good for her allies." He winks and sips at his wine.

"Oh, I'm not above a good sneak attack. In fact, I'm usually far above and several hundred yards away." Kelis tries to wink back. It looks a prelude to a seizure. "Besides, both of them had the potential to see me. They had spells. No dishonor in that at all."

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"In that case, what do you propose I do with you? You are technically a prisoner of war, as you know, but I'd much rather see you as at least an honored guest. Or an ally?"

"Well I much prefer this to a dungeon or a chain gang." Kelis means it a compliment. Mostly. "I swore an oath to the rulers of Khatovar. I cannot betray that. However, I'm not a partisan. Should you defeat them honorably --well, for your kind-- in war, ask me again. If you'll win, you'll probably need help with the Green King. He wants to rip the Stolen Lands from the face of the world. I'll gladly help you stop him."

"Oh, one request, Duke Ivoretti. May I have my cloak back? You see, I'm under something of a curse. The cloak... helps with it. Without it, I'm afraid, I might do something rash. Or destructive. Or incredibly embarrassing on a personal level. Frankly, it's a dung-shoot, and I don't want to hurt anyone. Accidentally."

OOC: in the evening, when she thinks she's unobserved, Kelis will cast Cleanse on herself. She'll try to do that nightly. She'll also send a dream to Leonis explaining her situation and describing her location as best she can. Other than that, she'll be as a gracious as "guest" as she can (with the help of booze and magic).

Casting a spell in a dungeon owned by a high level player? If that was even a remote possibility you would need to cast something better. Like a "get the F outta here" spell