At the Springlight Festival

Leonis wrote:

Not about the identity of the person (which we disagree upon) but there is the concept of someone only being attracted to one or both of the sexes.

Right. That concept (being, as you said, a concept) is something which only occurs historically and culturally. There have been a lot of studies about the fact that the idea of homosexuality or heterosexuality (and I mean the idea itself) is pretty damn recent an invention in human history. There's a reason that the words 'heterosexual' or 'homosexual' were only invented in 1892 (IIRC, by Havelock Ellis). A lot of the stuff which is treated as normal or taken for granted by many people in the US nowadays (correlations between sex and gender; marriage having to do with love & attraction; having a fixed sexuality or a sexuality of any kind; virginity; etc) are/were hardly so in different societies, whether in the past or currently elsewhere on the planet.

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At any point someone (be it a decision or nature, however it goes) is going to be enchanted by one or both of the sexes and grossed out by one of the sexes.

Enchanted by ? You have an interesting turn of phrase. And an idea of sexuality which is very historically and culturally constituted. There have been a lot of cultures where you'd be considered a little crazy for that idea. That's not even true in the USA right now (since we have people who are asexual, bisexual, pansexual and a bunch of other categories), even with all the cultural influences pushing people toward heterosexuality.

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Unless you removed this from the campaign, which is fine, but I would be curious as to what the point would be to removing that.

Yes, I did remove it from the campaign. Besides the fact that I find a lot of contemporary US ideas about gender and sexuality both utterly stupid and sexist, I just can't see any good reason they'd exist in a world like Eberron. The history of the world and its current components are just too different to use ideas which are so dependent on a very specific contemporary culture in our world and which arose due to a history which Eberron doesn't share. It's the same reason that I don't use 20th-21st century American ideas of religion or race either, to use a couple of examples. Hell, I don't even really use our ideas of physics, chemistry or biology, because they don't fit with Eberron as created. Even gravity doesn't work the same way in Eberron as in our world.

Admin wrote:

Right. That concept (being, as you said, a concept) is something which only occurs historically and culturally. There have been a lot of studies about the fact that the idea of homosexuality or heterosexuality (and I mean the idea itself) is pretty damn recent an invention in human history. There's a reason that the words 'heterosexual' or 'homosexual' were only invented in 1892 (IIRC, by Havelock Ellis). A lot of the stuff which is treated as normal or taken for granted by many people in the US nowadays (correlations between sex and gender; marriage having to do with love & attraction; having a fixed sexuality or a sexuality of any kind; virginity; etc) are/were hardly so in different societies, whether in the past or currently elsewhere on the planet.

While true, the fact that it's a new concept is mainly because heterosexuality was the implicit assumption, as there was no concept for anything different. Some cultures had ideas about close male companionship, but it rested on top of the idea that men and women will form sexual and family bonds together.

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Enchanted by ? You have an interesting turn of phrase. And an idea of sexuality which is very historically and culturally constituted. There have been a lot of cultures where you'd be considered a little crazy for that idea. That's not even true in the USA right now (since we have people who are asexual, bisexual, pansexual and a bunch of other categories), even with all the cultural influences pushing people toward heterosexuality.

Not to mention many permutations and combinations of bisexuality. One bisexual friend of mine is sexually attracted to both men and women, but only romantically attracted to men. Another friend, who identifies as a lesbian, is the opposite: sexually attracted to both men and women, but only romantically attracted to women. And there are various degrees of attraction of various sorts between those extremes.

Rowan is much more like the first one, incidentally.

Rowan wrote:

While true, the fact that it's a new concept is mainly because heterosexuality was the implicit assumption, as there was no concept for anything different. Some cultures had ideas about close male companionship, but it rested on top of the idea that men and women will form sexual and family bonds together.

True. My point was that the idea of heterosexuality (or static sexualities) as identity is a pretty recent invention. I've always been amused by the Greek and Roman spin on sex and identity, where the identifier wasn't who (or the category of people) you were having sex with but whether you were the penetrator or penetratee

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Not to mention many permutations and combinations of bisexuality. One bisexual friend of mine is sexually attracted to both men and women, but only romantically attracted to men. Another friend, who identifies as a lesbian, is the opposite: sexually attracted to both men and women, but only romantically attracted to women. And there are various degrees of attraction of various sorts between those extremes.

Yup. The Kinsey scale should have been a venn diagram. With lots of circles.

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Rowan is much more like the first one, incidentally.

Good to know.

This is where I have to disagree sexual identity and heterosexuality is not an invention, at all. Someone didn't just come up 100 years ago and said "EUREKA! I INVENTED A GAY PERSON! Let's mass produce them. They like rainbows!" It is a discovery. Many homosexuals (and advocates) state they discovered their feelings at puberty (for obvious reasons), they didn't invent (create) those feelings. Also, homosexuality is not a recent discovery. It is discussed in the bible, which is a really old book. It's not a new concept by any means.

As for the Greek/Roman spin I wonder how prevalent homosexuality/bi-sexuality really was. While I am sure there are studies that show numbers every which way (I am sure one says 1% of the population, 5%, 10%, 95%) I wonder how much it really was. To be honest I doubt it's much different then today. Also, today, homosexuality is a lot more accepted (at least in urban areas) then even 20 years ago. Unfortunately a fair study is probably impossible to tell since whoever did the study (1000-2000 years ago) may have been biased or had a bad sample pool.

bi/Homosexuality is not a choice in my opinion, and many other people's opinions. Yes, I could hypothetically go and have sex with a dude but just the thought of it makes me sick to my stomach. Just like some guy/girl having sex with someone of the same gender or opposite gender. For some people they don't care and for them they do have a choice - go guy or girl or both, but that predisposition is inherent to them. Just because that person has a choice does not mean others do (at least not without feeling weird/grossed out).

Leonis wrote:

This is where I have to disagree sexual identity and heterosexuality is not an invention, at all. Someone didn't just come up 100 years ago and said "EUREKA! I INVENTED A GAY PERSON! Let's mass produce them. They like rainbows!" It is a discovery. Many homosexuals (and advocates) state they discovered their feelings at puberty (for obvious reasons), they didn't invent (create) those feelings. Also, homosexuality is not a recent discovery. It is discussed in the bible, which is a really old book. It's not a new concept by any means.

As for the Greek/Roman spin I wonder how prevalent homosexuality/bi-sexuality really was. While I am sure there are studies that show numbers every which way (I am sure one says 1% of the population, 5%, 10%, 95%) I wonder how much it really was. To be honest I doubt it's much different then today. Also, today, homosexuality is a lot more accepted (at least in urban areas) then even 20 years ago. Unfortunately a fair study is probably impossible to tell since whoever did the study (1000-2000 years ago) may have been biased or had a bad sample pool.

bi/Homosexuality is not a choice in my opinion, and many other people's opinions. Yes, I could hypothetically go and have sex with a dude but just the thought of it makes me sick to my stomach. Just like some guy/girl having sex with someone of the same gender or opposite gender. For some people they don't care and for them they do have a choice - go guy or girl or both, but that predisposition is inherent to them. Just because that person has a choice does not mean others do (at least not without feeling weird/grossed out).

There are more things in heaven and earth, Avi, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Admin wrote:

There are more things in heaven and earth, Shil, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

fix't

Leonis wrote:

Admin wrote:

There are more things in heaven and earth, Shil, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

fix't

Having considered which of us is the one trotting out a narrowly deterministic set of ideas which are heavily reliant on mainstream views in their surrounding culture ... sure

Admin wrote:

Leonis wrote:

Admin wrote:

There are more things in heaven and earth, Shil, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

fix't

Having considered which of us is the one trotting out a narrowly deterministic set of ideas which are heavily reliant on mainstream views in their surrounding culture ... sure

How about we just not debate this topic. Actually, it's probably best we never debate any social topics. I've found that convincing you of a different idea is like the UN convincing Gaddafi of stepping down from power

Leonis wrote:

How about we just not debate this topic. Actually, it's probably best we never debate any social topics. I've found that convincing you of a different idea is like the UN convincing Gaddafi of stepping down from power

Fine by me. You're the one who raised the subject, remember?

Moving on.

Leonis get's dressed in his formal garb. It is a dark blue tunic, with a golden filigree symbol of Khatovar on the chest, and his wizard mark visible on the right shoulder. The arcane mark has a slight glow to it, the lux of a firefly's glow. It is enough to make it stand out, but not enough to be useful in practical situations. The symbol is the same color as deep ice with a blue/green tint, and depending on the angle viewed one color stands out a bit more then the other. His pants are a flat black color with subtle flowing lines sewn into the leggings. Leonis does have a belt and a small pouch with some coin and other items. Sewn into his tunic are some spell components, enough to allow for some offense and defense, and most importantly a quick get-away (e.g., regroup and teleport)

Leonis meets up with the group, looks at his apprentice, "Would you care to accompany me to the dinner?", and holds his arm out in a gentlemanly fashion.

Leonis wrote:

Moving on.

Leonis get's dressed in his formal garb. It is a dark blue tunic, with a golden filigree symbol of Khatovar on the chest, and his wizard mark visible on the right shoulder. The arcane mark has a slight glow to it, the lux of a firefly's glow. It is enough to make it stand out, but not enough to be useful in practical situations. The symbol is the same color as deep ice with a blue/green tint, and depending on the angle viewed one color stands out a bit more then the other. His pants are a flat black color with subtle flowing lines sewn into the leggings. Leonis does have a belt and a small pouch with some coin and other items. Sewn into his tunic are some spell components, enough to allow for some offense and defense, and most importantly a quick get-away (e.g., regroup and teleport)

Nice description.

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Leonis meets up with the group, looks at his apprentice, "Would you care to accompany me to the dinner?", and holds his arm out in a gentlemanly fashion.

I forgot to clarify that it's only the four rulers who have been invited to dinner. Not all competitors at the tournament get to dine with Irovetti, but the PCs are fellow rulers, so they get special treatment.

I'll put up a post later this evening or tomorrow morning describing the first meeting with Irovetti and we'll pick up there at the game tomorrow.

Once the four rulers of Khatovar are ready, they are taken by waiting attendants to a huge pavilion that has been set up a short distance to the east of the arena, which has heavily armored guards outside and above which the flag of Pitax flies. Two Pitax heralds are waiting at the doorway, one of whom asks them to follow her in.

Inside is a comfortable antechamber, with an open door to left and right. The one to the right leads to a large dining chamber, where attendants are moving around and setting up a table. The one on the left reveals only a dark, foggy mass. The herald asks the PCs to make themselves comfortable while she informs Baron Irovetti of their arrival. She steps into the fog and disappears. Leonis & Rowan recognize it as a mage's private sanctum spell, which is why it's utterly silent within. In just about a minute, the herald emerges and asks them to follow her. Stepping into the fog, they find themselves in a short hallway, ending at a curtained door with two guards before it. The herald pulls aside the curtain and steps to the side, saying loudly, “The ladies Kara and Rowan and the lords Leonis and Grabthar – rulers of Khatovar!”

Inside the chamber is a lavish sitting room, with large curtains to one side. It is heavily decorated with artwork and curios of various kinds. Most of the furniture here is made of wood, except for the throne against the far wall, which is evidently constructed of a dark green stone (presumably jade, considering one of Irovetti's titles). Seated in it is a tall, muscular man in his mid-to-late thirties. He is very ornately dressed, with a rich fur cloak over his scarlet robes, which are cut low in the front to reveal a muscular and hairy chest, and loose silk pants tucked into shin-high red boots with high heels. His long hair is tied into numerous braids, each culminating in a gleaming gemstone, and he has a pair of silver hoops in each ear. His dark and ruggedly handsome face has been carefully made up to accentuate the strong jaw and high cheekbones, and his eyes seem larger and darker due to the mascara he wears. Beside the man on the throne, there is a burly shifter woman with harsh features sitting in a chair near him, dressed in simple clothing over a chain shirt. Across from her is the half-elf Nunzia Arpaia, whom the Khatovarans have already met. Two attendants stand silently against the wall.

The man on the throne rises when they enter, standing over six and a half-feet tall in his heels, and smiles broadly. “Welcome!” he says enthusiastically, in a deep voice, “I am Castruccio Irovetti, lord of this land, and it is a great pleasure to see that you have arrived safely. Come, join me!” He walks over to embrace each of the Khatovarans and leads them to nearby chairs, before turning to the attendants, “Fetch wine for my friends!” He then introduces them to the shifter, Alasen, his marshal, before turning to the curtain and saying, “Athalia! We have guests!”.

After a couple of moments, the curtains open for a moment, revealing a bedchamber beyond, and a woman steps through. She is short, 5 ft at most, and plump, dressed in flowing green robes. And incredibly attractive, with bright green eyes under long blonde hair, probably the single most attractive woman that any of them has ever seen. She is also clearly not human, having pointed ears that are longer than an elf's. She smiles at the new arrivals and, for a moment, there is an extremely odd feeling of actual pain at her beauty, which passes almost immediately. Leonis and Rowan realize that she is a nymph. “This is Athalia,” says Irovetti, “who has recently taken on the position of magister of Pitax.” Athalia only smiles politely and takes a seat.

Admin wrote:

Leonis and Rowan realize that she is a nymph. “This is Athalia,” says Irovetti, “who has recently taken on the position of magister of Pitax.” Athalia only smiles politely and takes a seat.

OOC: Have to make a response to this part

Leonis thinks to himself, 'How do I get me one of those!', and then his face turns pink as he is not sure if he said it out loud or his brain was just screaming at him.