The first battle

Since we'll have the first battle of the war in the upcoming session, I wanted to set up as much of the scenario as I can before Sunday.

Here's a listing (with stats) of your armies. I've included the stats for their current commanders, but you can change some of those (well, you can change them all, but there are repercussions for some):

Infantry from Aundair; CR 5; Huge army of humans (500 warrior3); hp 27; DV 15; OM +6; Resources: Improved weapons; Speed 2; Consumption 4; Morale 1. Commander: Breyten (Ftr6; Profession +11; Cha +1)

Cavalry from Aundair; CR 4; Large army of humans (200 fighter3); hp 22; DV 17; OM +7; Resources: Improved armor, improved weapons, mounts; Speed 3; Consumption 6; Morale 2. Tactics: Cavalry experts. Commander: Vilina Olari (Magus8; Profession +13; Cha +2)

Nomen centaurs; CR 4; Medium army of centaurs (100 Centaur ranger1); hp 22; DV 16; OM +6, ranged; Resources: Ranged weapons; Speed 3; Consumption 3; Morale 2. Tactics: Cavalry Experts, Sniper Support; Special Abilities: Always treated as mounted, has no consumption while held in reserve in their own lands. Commander: Aecora Silverfire (Rgr2; Profession +8; Cha +2)

Khatovar cavalry; CR 6; Huge army of humans (500 fighter3); hp 33; DV 19; OM +9; Resources: Healing potions, improved armor, improved weapons, mounts, ranged weapons; Speed 3; Consumption 8 (+5 BP to replenish potions after each battle they are used); Morale 0. Tactics: Cavalry Experts. Commander: Retief Ness (Ftr7; Profession +13; Leadership; Cha +3)

Kobold skirmishers; CR3; Large army of kobolds (200 rogue2); hp 13; DV 13; OM +3; Resources: Ranged weapons; Speed 2; Tactics: Dirty Fighters; Consumption 3; Morale 0. Commander: Mikmek (Rog2; Profession +6; Cha +1)

You can replace some of the commanders with PCs, presumably Grabthar (at 12th level: Profession +13, Cha -1) or Rowan (at 12th level: Profession +12, Cha +7), since their stats may make a substantial difference to a battle.

You can also break up the above armies into smaller groups, though Darro had asked you not to break up the Aundair troops and to keep their original leaders. Breaking up armies has an advantage in that each new army gets to attack once in the mass combat round, letting you attack multiple enemy armies at once, or the same one multiple times, etc. The negative to breaking up into smaller forces is that they're lower on HP, have lower attack and defense bonuses, etc. Consider it like the choice between having a single CR 6 NPC to aid you, or two CR 4s, three CR 3s, etc.

The three primary locations where your armies can be are Tatzlford, Hunter's Horn (to the SE of Tatzlford) and Olegton (to the SE of Hunter's Horn), all three of which are potential targets for Avina Jurrg's army. Hunter's Horn is between the other two, so that's probably the best option for keeping your troops (esp. infantry), since your troops can likely make it to either of the other locations from there before Avina's armies can. An army doesn't have to be inside one of these places, either. You could, for example, station the centaurs midway between Hunter's Horn and Olegton, so they could respond quickly to either location and/or harass Avina's troops if possible.

Another decision will be where to have the PCs (those who aren't leading an army, that is) located. You also have a number of NPCs--Asaia Bell (the former Drelev archer who shot Kelis), Quintessa, Terrion, Elga Verniex (the witch), etc.--who could be useful, but you might also want to have them covering your capital while you're away.

So, here are my questions:

1 - Are you sticking with the original commanders or replacing any with PCs?

2 - Are you breaking up any of the armies into smaller groups? (This is particularly important to me since doing so means I have to do a new stat block for each)

3 - Where are you initially placing each army?

4 - Where are the PCs going to be? If there's any NPC you want in a location where they might contribute to the battle, let me know about that too.

Admin wrote:

You can replace some of the commanders with PCs, presumably Grabthar (at 12th level: Profession +13, Cha -1)

I'm still deciding on what I'm going to take for Grabthar, but I'm putting at least 2 more ranks into Soldier. He also gets a +2 on char based skill checks from the Breastplate of command. I'm also trying to see if I can't work in a +2 char item.

The Banner of Speed, lets the Army Grabthar is with do forced marches without any penalties. So if I'm understanding this correctly, we could get 2-3 days worth of marching in a single day. Which should make it a LOT easier to intercept the Pitaxe forces.

Quote :

Swiftness: A group or army that are traveling under a lord's banner of swiftness can make a forced march without needing Constitution checks or suffering any nonlethal damage from doing so, allowing them to cover great distances while still arriving ready to do battle. This ability affects all allied creatures within 1 mile as long as they are able to see the banner at least once a day.

Forced March wrote:

In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.

A character can walk for more than 8 hours in a day by making a forced march. For each hour of marching beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It's possible for a character to march into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard.

Do we know what forces are moving? Because that's something I'd definitely want to have scouted out.

Admin wrote:

So, here are my questions:

1 - Are you sticking with the original commanders or replacing any with PCs?

I was thinking of having Grabthar command the Centaurs, with his Griffon he can easily keep up with them and he's better than the current commander.

Admin wrote:

3 - Where are you initially placing each army?

My basic strategy was to put the Aundairan infantry in the most likely location of attack. Kobolds in the alternative target and mass the cavalry in the center to hit Pitaxe forces when they got to their target, by taking advantage of the increased movement the Banner permits.

If possible I'd like the Audairan infantry to have about 100 visible at the target and the rest under cover or out of sight in the area to make it look like it was more attractive. Conversely, have the Kobolds try and mimic the presence of a larger force (marching around wt different unit colors, more fires as if there was a larger force present, etc...)

Admin wrote:

2 - Are you breaking up any of the armies into smaller groups? (This is particularly important to me since doing so means I have to do a new stat block for each)

My plan for the "decisive battle" was to move the massed cavalry as a single group in order to take advantage of the Banner and to split the 500 cavalry we raised into two 200 and one 100 groups or a 300 (cr5?) and 200 (cr4), when we got into the area of the battle. The rest of the forces I was planning on keeping as they were.

Admin wrote:

4 - Where are the PCs going to be? If there's any NPC you want in a location where they might contribute to the battle, let me know about that too.

I need more time to look that over.

Nameless wrote:

I'm still deciding on what I'm going to take for Grabthar, but I'm putting at least 2 more ranks into Soldier. He also gets a +2 on char based skill checks from the Breastplate of command. I'm also trying to see if I can't work in a +2 char item.

The Circlet of Persuasion gives a +3 bonus, but it's a competence bonus (like the Breastplate), so it overlaps and doesn't simply stack. I'd say that with the 2 more ranks you're doing as well as you need.

Quote :

The Banner of Speed, lets the Army Grabthar is with do forced marches without any penalties. So if I'm understanding this correctly, we could get 2-3 days worth of marching in a single day. Which should make it a LOT easier to intercept the Pitaxe forces.

I'll say 2 days worth max. It doesn't remove the need for sleep or eating or (in the case of the army) the time which is needed to prepare to fight after one has arrived somewhere. But that would be more than enough to intercept the Pitax forces.

Quote :

Do we know what forces are moving? Because that's something I'd definitely want to have scouted out.

The Pitax forces consist of about a thousand human infantry, 200 cavalry, 150 Tiger Lord barbarians and 25 mastodons with hill giant riders.

Quote :

I was thinking of having Grabthar command the Centaurs, with his Griffon he can easily keep up with them and he's better than the current commander.

Makes sense.

Quote :

My basic strategy was to put the Aundairan infantry in the most likely location of attack. Kobolds in the alternative target and mass the cavalry in the center to hit Pitaxe forces when they got to their target, by taking advantage of the increased movement the Banner permits.

Okay. So that would be the Aundairan infantry in Hunter's Horn, the kobolds in Olegton and the infantry in the forest on the road between Olegton and Hunter's Horn.

Quote :

If possible I'd like the Audairan infantry to have about 100 visible at the target and the rest under cover or out of sight in the area to make it look like it was more attractive. Conversely, have the Kobolds try and mimic the presence of a larger force (marching around wt different unit colors, more fires as if there was a larger force present, etc...)

You can do both, but Irovetti's likely got people bringing him info about your forces, just as you have about his, so he'll have a basic idea of what you have (though perhaps not all the details of the disposition).

Quote :

My plan for the "decisive battle" was to move the massed cavalry as a single group in order to take advantage of the Banner and to split the 500 cavalry we raised into two 200 and one 100 groups or a 300 (cr5?) and 200 (cr4), when we got into the area of the battle. The rest of the forces I was planning on keeping as they were.

Let's go with the two 200 and one 100 group, since that'll be easier to handle and give you more options. Who will you have commanding them? Retief and Rowan can do two of the groups, but you need someone handling the third. Terrion, maybe?

Quote :

I need more time to look that over.

Sure.

Here are the stats for your cavalry troops if you split them into two sets of 200 and one of 100:

2 x Khatovar cavalry; CR 4; Large army of humans (200 fighter3); hp 22; DV 17; OM +7; Resources: Healing potions, improved armor, improved weapons, mounts, ranged weapons; Speed 3; Consumption 7 (+5 BP to replenish potions after each battle they are used); Morale 0. Tactics: Cavalry Experts.

1 x Khatovar cavalry; CR 2; Medium army of humans (100 fighter3); hp 11; DV 15; OM +5; Resources: Healing potions, improved armor, improved weapons, mounts, ranged weapons; Speed 3; Consumption 6 (+5 BP to replenish potions after each battle they are used); Morale 0. Tactics: Cavalry Experts.

This is probably mechanically better than keeping them a single troop, since they now have a total of 55 hp between them (instead of 33 hp as one big troop) and can make three attacks at +7 each (instead of one at +9). The downside, of course, is that it's easier for a large enemy to take them apart individually (though having 3 troops instead of one gives you more protection against suffering a bad set of rolls) and that you can't assign a single commander with really good stats to them all but need three. They also costs a lot more to maintain, but that's not an immediate issue.

Overall, however, splitting up is probably the better bet. I'm estimating based on the numbers and the impression I get of the combat rules, since I haven't seen them in play yet.

Before game this weekend I will rework some of Leonis.

Is it possible for Leonis to work with some wizards to sneak in the backlines to kidnap/assassinate commanders of the enemy? Teleport in with say Rowan, and then teleport out with Rowan and an unconscious commander works great.

If that won't work then Wind elemental + area damage spells. I assume a wind elemental flying high is hard to spot?

Leonis wrote:

Before game this weekend I will rework some of Leonis.

Is it possible for Leonis to work with some wizards to sneak in the backlines to kidnap/assassinate commanders of the enemy? Teleport in with say Rowan, and then teleport out with Rowan and an unconscious commander works great.

Sure if we want them kidnapping and killing our councilors and commanders. Remember they can play that game just as well if not better than we can.

Given that Grabthar has no interest in getting any more of our people killed than possible, I would say "No" on that one.

Leonis wrote:

If that won't work then Wind elemental + area damage spells. I assume a wind elemental flying high is hard to spot?

You can not kill armies like this in the Kingmaker campaign Avi. If you wish to fight an army single handedly, you are doing it as a CR 4 army (Char lvl -1 - 8 for size of 1) with an HP of 14. Which actually isn't too bad for an army.

Feel free to attack all the armies you like.

Read the mass combat rules if you want to know how that is going to work.

OTOH, If you really want to kill a commander, given how Shil has been running things, you will probably get your "Achilles vs Hector" moment to square off against at least one of the commanders.

Nameless wrote:

Sure if we want them kidnapping and killing our councilors and commanders. Remember they can play that game just as well if not better than we can.

Given that Grabthar has no interest in getting any more of our people killed than possible, I would say "No" on that one.

Maybe they can, maybe we can't. I am not saying going into their tents at night, I am talking about the field of battle. Since our people will be killed during wartime, getting rid of some of their commanders may help mitigate issues. So while Grabthar would say "No", it's still an item for discussion. Grabthar is one of the leaders of the kingdom, not the sole leader.

Nameless wrote:

You can not kill armies like this in the Kingmaker campaign Avi. If you wish to fight an army single handedly, you are doing it as a CR 4 army (Char lvl -1 - 8 for size of 1) with an HP of 14. Which actually isn't too bad for an army.

Feel free to attack all the armies you like.

Read the mass combat rules if you want to know how that is going to work.

OTOH, If you really want to kill a commander, given how Shil has been running things, you will probably get your "Achilles vs Hector" moment to square off against at least one of the commanders.

Well, Grabthar has his way of leading the troops, and Leonis has his way leading the "war mages". Dropping mass area spells from up high is a great way to kill things and probably just a bit more fun then saying "Leonis leads a group of people. He gives them +X bonus." Makes me feel like a ring of protection +2

Leonis wrote:

Nameless wrote:

Sure if we want them kidnapping and killing our councilors and commanders. Remember they can play that game just as well if not better than we can.

Given that Grabthar has no interest in getting any more of our people killed than possible, I would say "No" on that one.

Maybe they can, maybe we can't. I am not saying going into their tents at night, I am talking about the field of battle. Since our people will be killed during wartime, getting rid of some of their commanders may help mitigate issues. So while Grabthar would say "No", it's still an item for discussion. Grabthar is one of the leaders of the kingdom, not the sole leader.

I said "I would say "No".

Not "WE are not doing this."

Besides if you are talking about the field of battle, then that basically comes down to the "Achilles vs Hector" moment. Which Shil is perfectly happy to use to have an affect the outcome of the battle and the aftermath.

Leonis wrote:

Well, Grabthar has his way of leading the troops, and Leonis has his way leading the "war mages". Dropping mass area spells from up high is a great way to kill things and probably just a bit more fun then saying "Leonis leads a group of people. He gives them +X bonus." Makes me feel like a ring of protection +2

Avi, like it or not the system we are using for the army stuff is highly abstracted and Shil has repeatedly stated that he's not going to let the PCs smash up armies the way the Angels did.

FWIW, Leonis IS about as powerful as the units we have been using in combat which have generally been a CR4-5.

But if you want to have an effect on the combat as something other than a RoP +2, that's where the "dual" wt the enemy leader comes in.

We killed Imeckus and Kob Moleg the leader of the Hill giants in the battles we did the past weekend. So if you want to take on The Gimp in another battle, I'm sure Shil will be happy to oblige at some point

Duels are great for people with lots of HP, but not good for those who rely on being invisible. Doing head to head works for some, not all. Why would Leonis even consider putting himself in that situation when the odds are very much in his disfavor

Leonis wrote:

Duels are great for people with lots of HP, but not good for those who rely on being invisible.

So you think The Gimp has lots of HP and doesn't have similar vulnerabilities/weaknesses to Leonis? All our likely opponents are probably going to be able to see Invis so that's not a great crutch to lean on. IMHO.

Leonis wrote:

Doing head to head works for some, not all. Why would Leonis even consider putting himself in that situation when the odds are very much in his disfavor

I don't know. He's your character, not mine. I didn't say you had to do something like that.

If you don't want to be something other than a RoP +2. It's fine with me. I wasn't under the impression it was something Shil was going to be forcing the characters to do. Achilles did spend a lot of time sulking in his tent after all.

From what I've seen, what would be likely to happen is something along the lines of Leonis vs The Gimp or a similar opponent. There isn't much of a point to the "duel" if the opponents are wildly miss-matched after all.

I suspect, that if we tossed in some/all of the rest of the group, we'd then be "dueling" a similar number of foes. So I don't think it is necessarily a one on one. But Shil will have to answer that one.

If it makes you feel any better, Grabthar is arguably less well off than Leonis vs a lot of the potential foes simply due to his relatively limited mobility. As he is lacking any sort of Dim Door instant movement or inherent flight. We have killed off a number of Irovetti's melee oriented folks.

Didn't see the above exchange till I randomly checked the forum, since I appear to never get updates at all now

As John noted, I'm definitely not doing the PC vs. army thing. I had enough of that in the Angels campaign and Irovetti's troops have enough minor magical support to protect them from that sort of attack (same goes for your troops, otherwise Imeckus, Tyman and Engilidis would have wiped out every army you have by now).

If you want your PC to be more personally involved during a battle besides rolling dice, then I'd do a duel or mini-encounter (i.e. PC vs. multiple weaker foes rather than a single enemy).

Nameless wrote:

If you don't want to be something other than a RoP +2. It's fine with me. I wasn't under the impression it was something Shil was going to be forcing the characters to do. Achilles did spend a lot of time sulking in his tent after all.

Quote :

From what I've seen, what would be likely to happen is something along the lines of Leonis vs The Gimp or a similar opponent. There isn't much of a point to the "duel" if the opponents are wildly miss-matched after all.

I suspect, that if we tossed in some/all of the rest of the group, we'd then be "dueling" a similar number of foes. So I don't think it is necessarily a one on one. But Shil will have to answer that one.

If it makes you feel any better, Grabthar is arguably less well off than Leonis vs a lot of the potential foes simply due to his relatively limited mobility. As he is lacking any sort of Dim Door instant movement or inherent flight. We have killed off a number of Irovetti's melee oriented folks.

Correct. I'm not going to toss an enemy or encounter at the PC(s) when they get involved which they aren't reasonably able to handle. If I'd, for example, tossed Imeckus at Grabthar and Kob Moleg at Kelis, Grabby and Kob Moleg would have been dead without much effort on their enemy's part. That's no fun.

And if the PCs do get involved as a group, then they'd face a varied group.

For the units learning new tactics

The member 'Nameless' has done the following action : Dice roller

'd20' : 7, 15, 11, 8

Admin wrote:

The member 'Nameless' has done the following action : Dice roller

'd20' : 7, 15, 11, 8

So Dirty Tricks for one of the Khatovar Cav units and Sniper Support for the other.

Feigned Retreat for the Aundairan cav and Dirty Tricks for the Infantry.

Since we'll likely be covering a couple of weeks during the game on Saturday, give me a couple of insanity saves each. Since some of your bonuses have changed, let me know your Will save in the post (include a +1 for the Heroes Feast that Kelis normally casts daily).

Grabthar, I forget exactly what his will save bonus is IIRC, it's +11 (not 12) so +12 including the HF bonus.

He made it either way though.

The member 'Nameless' has done the following action : Dice roller

'd20' : 17, 10

Kelis's save are (bad!): 17, 21

The member 'Kelis' has done the following action : Dice roller

'd20' : 4, 8

Rolling for Rowan.

The member 'Admin' has done the following action : Dice roller

#1 'd20' : 5

--------------------------------

#2 'd20' : 6

BTW, the insanity save DCs went up by 2 when the PCs leveled, so it's currently a 21.

So that's two successes for Grabthar, two failures for Kelis and two failures for Rowan, which puts up at the following number of insanity points currently:

Grabthar – 0; Kara – 2; Leonis and Rowan – 3; Kelis – 4 (with Leonis and Kara still to roll)

This might be interesting

Admin wrote:

... two failures for Kelis...

Hey, if the DC is 21, she made one save!

(then again, she's kinda saner when she's crazy)

Kelis wrote:

Admin wrote:

... two failures for Kelis...

Hey, if the DC is 21, she made one save!

She has a -2 penalty on these saves, as do Kara and Leonis (with Rowan having a -3), so that made her fail.

Quote :

(then again, she's kinda saner when she's crazy)

True dat.

Rolling for Kara...